What is a sports car?

"mcseanerson" (mcseanerson)
09/13/2014 at 14:46 • Filed to: None

EDIT: Maybe I need to clarify something here. I am not saying one type of car is the best or better than others. I am defining a specific type of car. Not saying Sports Car>Muscle Car or Sports Car > Hyper Car. Just that when you use the term sports car it refers to a specific type of car and a lot of people fail to realize this and confuse sports car with sporty car. Consider this a clarifier.

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Let's take a step back and look at an early post war sports car.

The Triumph TR3. It weighs 2090 lbs and makes 100 hp. A part of me feels like just telling people to stare at this image for an hour while saying sports car repeatedly and they'd get the point. The Triumph TR3 follows the basic sports car formula: Light weight, a small eager engine, two seats, rear wheel drive, and topless whenever possible. These traits are ordered in most important to least important for a sports car. I would argue you could even give up the last three traits and still have something that if it is not a sports car at least feels like one.

While bigger heavier cars can be fast and even fast through the turns they aren't really sports cars.

Not in the traditional sense anyways. These bigger heavier cars are nimble for their size but more than their weight that disqualifies them it's their power.

The problem is they are just too fast in the straights and they aren't as a fast as their little brothers in the turns. This ruins the whole sports car experience of wringing every last ounce of momentum out of a car. It allows drivers to get lazy and go moderately fast through the turns and just hammer down on the straights.

A proper sports car will always be something with a lighter chassis and a motor trying to keep up. So where have all our sports cars gone? Well in the 60's and 70's a lot of them became coupes with back seats.

Then in the 80's things started getting really weird. They kind of branched in two different directions.

First you have the E30 M3. Reasonably lightweight for it's size and a pretty powerful motor for it's time and size. It mad 195 hp and 170 ft lbs of torque out of a 2.3 4 cylinder and weighed 2724 lbs. By modern weights that's pretty light but back then it was not that light. It keeps the rear wheel drive part of the formula but it's heavier, has a faster motor, has a back seat and a pretty large body over all.

On the other end we have where I think a lot of people are not looking. The hot hatch.

The original GTI weighed 1,785 lbs and mad 107 hp and 103 ft lbs of torque. A lot closer to what original sports cars were like. It's lightweight with an engine trying to keep up with it's chassis, the two most important sports car traits. I think people just could get over the fact that it and it's bretheren are front wheel drive.

We move forward a bit more and it gets even harder to understand what a modern sports car is.

Take the 2015 GTI for instance. It weighs 2972 lbs and it makes 210 hp and 258 ft lbs of torque. Sounds more like that M3 earlier than it does like the original GTI. Blame model bloat. Even worse than the fact that these hot hatches got heavier is they went to the easiest solution for heavy performance cars: make the engine more powerful. That kills both of the primary sports car traits of lightweight and eager small motors trying to keep up with the chassis.

So what are our modern sports cars currently on sale? Well the obvious answers are the Miata and the BRZ/FR-S.

Both are lightweight with weaker motors compared to others. But there are some more interesting answers to this question.

The Mazda2. It makes 100 hp and weighs 2306 lbs. The modern answer isn't hot hatches because even they have become too fat and too powerful. The closest I would look at hot hatches is the Fiesta ST but it's a bit on the heavy side and makes too much power. What's that, you scoff at me calling a Fiesta ST powerful and fat? Well it makes 197 hp and weighs 2745 lbs. To drive that point home it's based on the same platform as the lighter and weaker Mazda2.

Don't worry Ford fans though, I have an answer for you.

The Fiesta Ecoboost. Consider it an ST lite. It weighs 2592 lbs and makes 123 hp and 148 ft lbs torque.

There are other modern sports cars and there are other modern posers and just like your food you have to learn to read the labels. Hopefully we can stop calling La Ferraris sports cars now.

DISCUSSION (57)

jkm7680 > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 12:53

I found that article to be pretty expansive.

Sports Sedans, Hatches and supercars aren't included in the realm of sports cars IMO.

I find sports cars to be like the Corvette, Miata, S2k, TT.

Nerd-Vol > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 12:58

Miata is too slow to be considered a sports car.

;)

Sweet Trav > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:01

I think that sports cars are cars with the pre-eminent design feature being that they are to be used in sport.

Therefore if you aren't driving a homologation special, you aren't driving a sports car.

Read: None of us are driving sports cars. Just cars with sporting pretensions.

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:10

Kinja'd!!!

I always thought a sports car was something fun with performance, something that was always an occasion to drive in. It doesn't have to be fast though, nor do you have to drive it fast - sporty rather that professional athlete. The British were king of the hill with this. Of course, you could make a British sports car fast (see AC Cobra Super Snake with twin Paxton superchargers), but fast will pull big clumps of your hair out. Fast will hurt.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:12

Sportscars currently on sale in the US: Miata, 370Z, Corvette, Boxter/Cayman, Z4, F-Type, Viper, 911 only in GT3 guise, SLK, Elise, Evora non 2+2, 458, 650S, MP4-12C (I think they still sell that one), and that's it.

GhostZ > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:13

2-box chassis not based on a sedan platform. 4-wheel independent suspension utilizing either struts, wishbones, or some similar design. Unibody construction with a hard top or coupe roof, convertibles only in the event that all cars were a convertible. Suspension configuration and springs are not to be adjustable or electronically controlled. Dampeners may be.

Weight and engine output need to be outside of certain number of standard deviations of the production cars around its production number.

Body roll, steering ratio and steering angle both have to be within a certain range as well.

Tires should be as narrow and short as possible, with as high quality compound as possible.

Mechanical steering, may be assisted. Manual transmission with a clutch pedal.

Peak torque and peak HP of the engine should not be further apart than 40% of the entire rev range. Peak horsepower should not be more than 10% from the engine's redline, which should be a certain number of standard deviations higher than regular.

Exhaust is to be as unrestricted as possible, with no noise valves or electronic adjustments.

Differential is not to be adjustable in its lock/slip status, or if it is, an open differential must be offered as an option. Ideally, no LSD.

Transmission ratios should be as evenly chosen as possible, with as narrow ratios as possible. Top speed should not be a concern.

Wheelbase should not exceed a certain number of standard deviations of similarly-produced 2-door cars. Ideally, it should be 90in +/- 15in.

All scoops, grills, or openings in the bodywork must be functional, or optional.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:27

After having gone and driven the BRZ and FiST last weekend, I completely agree.

My current DD is a 2002 SVT Focus, which I feel nearly fits your criteria for a sports car. It's relatively light weight, ~2700 pounds, only makes 170 HP from an engine begging to be rung to the limit, and it handles very well and encourages momentum driving as it's not especially quick off the line. But, it's still a big, heavy car compared to the TR3, Miata, etc.

Driving the BRZ felt right at home. Linear power delivery, that responds to my commands and is engaging to drive regardless of how fast you are actually going.

The FiST felt strange. I hated the seating position, far too high in the vehicle, and way too far behind the front wheels. Sure it handles like you can't believe, but I felt so far removed from the driving experience I was actually a little afraid of it, especially when the boost hits in 2nd gear.

A sports car should reward you for driving well , not dumb-down the interaction or lower the bar so that everyone can feel like they are Senna. Don't get me wrong, I still love the Porsche 911, Corvette, etc because they are great cars and are rewarding when they are driven well. It's just that those rewards happen at speeds that are utterly unobtainable on public roads.

Using the TR3 again, you can driving the valves off that thing and feel like you're fighting for the F1/Le Mans title, but when you look at the speedo you're only going 42 and the police you just passed don't care.

Slow car fast> fast car

mcseanerson > jkm7680
09/13/2014 at 13:32

If we're being very strict with the term than the only sports cars are the Miata and the BRZ. I'm just saying if you get a little loose with the term the Mazda2 and the Fiesta Ecoboost fit pretty well. The Corvette is a Grand Tourer, The S2k is too powerful (just a little too powerful so it's not that bad), the TT is too heavy and doesn't have a really great chassis. In spirit small light hatches with decent motors are closer to original sports cars than all those cars.

mcseanerson > Sweet Trav
09/13/2014 at 13:34

Your confusing race car with sports car. Most early sports cars were designed for the road.

mcseanerson > TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut
09/13/2014 at 13:36

Sports cars are fun but they shouldn't have too much performance. You should be able to work the engine most of the time.

djmt1 > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:41

Why people feel the need to over complicate this is beyond me. I blame Google and its bullshit definition. Simply put, a sports car is a car designed to be driven in a sporting manner and they are come in wider variety than 2 seat convertible Google.

mcseanerson > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/13/2014 at 13:41

Ferrari and Mclaren don't make sports cars. The Corvette and 911 are more along the line of grand tourers these days rather than proper sports cars. 370z and SLK are too heavy. Boxster/Cayman I would probably accept the base models but S trim and up is too fast. The Viper is way too brutish to be a sports car. The Elise and Evora are good buy I can never keep track of what Lotus sells anymore. The F type is both too heavy and too powerful. Good rule of thumb is a sports car should weigh less than 3,000 lbs.

mcseanerson > GhostZ
09/13/2014 at 13:48

I'm trying to avoid hard and fast rules but if I had to set some my first two would be less than 3,000 lbs (a lot less ideally) and less than 200 hp. A good willing chassis is next. RWD is ideal but FWD is acceptable if tuned properly.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:52

No, a Corvette has always been a Sportscar. The 458 and 650S/12-C are sportscars. As is the 911 GT3. Same with the F-Type, SLK, Viper and the 370Z. All new cars pretty much weigh more than 3,000 lbs, it's just a fact of life now.

evil2win > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 13:53

Sports cars also have to look good, be willing to sacrifice practicality to the gods of handling, and create a unique driving experience makes the car an extension of your on body.

I love driving cars that weigh in at or under a ton.

mcseanerson > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/13/2014 at 13:55

Yeah you pretty much nailed it. I would consider an SVT Focus a modern sports car or at least sports car like. I wasn't trying to say that modern hatches are sports cars but take a look at the evolution of the sports car. Our small lighter hatches with decent power more closely resemble traditional sports cars than a Boxster or M235i.

The problem I think you had with the BRZ vs the FiST is the torque and how it delivers it's power. People complain about the torque dip on the BRZ but that just means you have to keep the revs up like a proper sports car. The FiST will come on strong just about anywhere with that turbo. The Ecoboost Fiesta wouldn't be as bad because it's not as strong, plus it's lighter.

I love these higher performance fun cars like the Vette and the 911 as well but I just don't consider them proper sports cars.

mcseanerson > djmt1
09/13/2014 at 13:56

A traditional sports car is not simply a 2 seat convertible but it's not anything that you want to drive in a sporting manner. By that definition you could call a hellcat challenger a sports car.

mcseanerson > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/13/2014 at 14:02

I think the only Corvette that really fit the sportscar mold very well is the first gen and even then it was a bit too big to be a real sports car. The 458 and 650s/12-c are all pretty much supercars. The 911 is a race car/track car. Nothing with a V10 is a sports car. Traditional sportscars are lightweight and with weak yet eager motors. That doesn't fit the F-type, the SLK, or the 370Z. There are plenty of cars under 3,000 lbs coming out these days with all the efforts at getting lower emissions. Sporty cars don't have to be over 3,000 lbs, they just make them that way because they'd rather stuff a big motor in there and call it a day. There is a difference between sporty cars and sports cars.

mcseanerson > evil2win
09/13/2014 at 14:03

While I agree that one ton is an ideal goal weight for a sports car that is just about unreasonable with current cars. That really only has the Miata and the Elise. Anything else near that weight is basically a kit car.

evil2win > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:25

It seems the automotive world has been so obsessed with power and technical prowess that a lot of people have forgotten the joy of driving a simple, light car that has just enough power to give the driver the feel of pushing a car to its limits, and the simple joy of well executed turn. We don't all need 300+ horse power and carbon-fiber brake rotors. A light, good handling car that's fun to drive is fine for a lot of us.

Of course this is coming from an old guy who still daily drives his 73 Fiat spider.

mcseanerson > evil2win
09/13/2014 at 14:29

I agree with you, it's just that one ton goal weight is hard to meet with all the safety regulations. Anything bigger than a Miata is going to weigh more than that. I think the Mazda 2 is as light as you can get with a back seat. I would love for the automakers to prove me wrong.

Kudos on the spider. I want something old and Italian eventually. Right now I make do with my 95 Miata. It's not a bad consolation prize.

djmt1 > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:33

By my definition it is. You have cars, then performance cars which consists of Sports

Also my point is not wanting to drive in a sporting manner but designed to. The hellcat was designed to be sporty mainly in a straight line but there are straights on race tracks.

Having driven an E63 on a track my definition of what is a sports car maybe a bit out of focus but it felt a shit ton more sporty then any Mx5.

mcseanerson > djmt1
09/13/2014 at 14:34

sporty car =/= sports car.

theburnerformerlyknowasthestigfarmer > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:35

Sports car = any vehicle which focuses on driver enjoyment.

tis the most democratic answer imo

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:37

I think a good definition of a sports car is any car who primary purpose is to be used in the sport of driving, whether than be racing, or purely driving on public roads in a sporting manner.

djmt1 > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:38

Why not. The Merc didn't feel out of place on the track, almost if it was designed to be driven on one. Also lightness isn't everything (it is better) you should give the big girls a chance.

mcseanerson > djmt1
09/13/2014 at 14:44

Kinja'd!!!

djmt1 > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:46

Depends on whether or not you're into Big girls.

mcseanerson > djmt1
09/13/2014 at 14:48

I'm not saying sports cars are superior to all other cars. I'm just saying that the term sports car refers to a specific type of car, the same way muscle car does.

Leadbull > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:51

Kinja'd!!!

Why are you so adamant about sports cars needing weak engines?

Kinja'd!!!

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:54

The BRZ felt plenty fast enough to me, you jut have to provoke the speed which means YOU decided you wanted to go fast.

The FiST felt like I was along for the ride once the turbo hit.

djmt1 > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:56

I get that it is just my definition is much more broad. Probably fatigue from explaining what car I'm driving on the various track days I've been given for my birthday. (Video games and clothes are banned so what else do you get a young man).

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 14:56

These 'what is a sports car' posts keep popping up. It's like how there's eleventy billion different sub-genres of techno music. Let's not get too caught up in classifying things.

mcseanerson > Leadbull
09/13/2014 at 14:59

Those aren't sports cars. It's about having an engine you can actually use on a back road. They are momentum cars.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein
09/13/2014 at 15:01

This is an update of my previous post. And sports cars were defined long before most of us came along.

Leadbull > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 15:04

Kinja'd!!!

With all due respect, you're crazy.

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 15:12

Do you want to classify your car, or do you want to drive your car? It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. WINNING'S WINNING.

mcseanerson > Leadbull
09/13/2014 at 15:13

Maybe.

Leadbull > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/13/2014 at 15:24

Slower cars may be more accessible (and possibly fun), but that doesn't mean fast cars aren't sports cars.

Being fast should not disqualify something from being a sports car. That's absurd.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein
09/13/2014 at 15:25

Everyone else is busy buying Vettes and 911s and winning.

Meanwhile I'm too busy grinning.

thebigbossyboss > jkm7680
09/13/2014 at 15:32

I dunno. I think the miata is just a roadster.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Leadbull
09/13/2014 at 15:44

I never explicitly stated fast cars cannot be sports cars.I only said that I agreed with the OP definition of a sports car.

Our modern ideal of a sports car is indeed faster than what I would personally want to drive though. I feel like the original Miata is the perfect modern take on a sports car. It's only fast when you're really pushing it, whereas the current crop are crazy fast without any effort at all.

I've driven a couple 911's and both will hit 100 mph before you can blink. To really control such cars you must already be a great driver. In contrast something like the TR3 or NA Miata teaches you how to be a great driver by letting you explore their limits at speeds that are neither lethal should you have an accident, nor are they so fast you get to spend years in prison as a result. One may also not need be outrageously wealthy to enjoy them either.

Driving enjoyment should not belong only to the 1%.

Milky > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 15:51

So anything underpowered is a sports car!!!11!!!!! Yay?

IMO your definition is crap.

Kinja'd!!!

Milky > theburnerformerlyknowasthestigfarmer
09/13/2014 at 15:57

#SportsCar

Kinja'd!!!

mcseanerson > Milky
09/13/2014 at 15:59

No, not anything underpowered. It has to have an eager and willing motor and it has to have a good chassis set up for spirited driving. And it's not my definition. It's the traditional definition.

Milky > mcseanerson
09/13/2014 at 16:07

Kinja'd!!!